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 Post subject: BST magic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:52 am 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:59 pm
Posts: 570
Location: brisbane, australia
Here is a picture of some needles I have tried. KTM 640, two shaved stock needles and the mighty DJ.

Image
needle comparison by auscanvet, on Flickr

Short story; After many hours of trial and error I have a set up in my bike that works better than the DJ kit!

Total cost for carb parts as set up ; Zero, Nada! Stock pilot, main, spring (cut), and stock needle shaved close to DJ profile.

Long story later if anyone interested. Great running DR with stock carb.

_________________
"Sold" 2011 DR650 GSXR #24, drilled slide, cut spring, modified stock needle, with cut air box, air assist forks, lowered pegs, stock tank,15-41. Still love working on them!


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:43 am 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Valemount B.C.
Location:
I like the idea of polishing the stock needle to a different profile.I have thought of doing this myself.What are the dimensions you are useing on your setup?I would like to hear the whole story on your experiance too.


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:59 pm
Posts: 570
Location: brisbane, australia
Long story;

History;
Came to Australia from Canada 9 yrs ago following daughter who came to race Enduro and we have stayed. I have raced and tuned dirt bikes for over 40 yrs and want to give back to the riders whose stories and tips have saved me much money and time. First I bought a bunch of GSXR mufflers, made mid-pipes for them and sold (all gone), installed and tuned some great peoples bikes. Now my many hours of carb tuning may help others save money and get great running DR's!! I traded a mid-pipe for a stock carb that had a DJ kit installed. Now riders can come and try my modified parts without touching theirs until they are happy.
My test loop is 20% dirt on our enduro loop and 80% country bitumen at 500ft. or 160m above sea level. Temps from 15c to 30c. Taking only two min. to have the needle in your grubby hands make tuning the DR a pleasure. Many combinations can be tried quickly with a great ride each time. I have Ice-raced at -30c and rode Trials and Enduro's over 40c so tuning for temp. is second nature. Most people don't realise how lean you have to go as temperature rises.

Most owners feel the bike is lean, stock, but according to others much smarter than me (mxrob and others), the bike is only lean just off idle and close everywhere else.The air box on the DR must be opened up to get any more power or response. This picture shows what I have. Everyone has their own ideas, this is mine and here is why. With the stock jets the DR can only accept so much fuel.
"NOTE" If you open up the air box more or take off the side cover you may get a bit more power but at the expense of fuel milage and intake noise. You will not be able to run stock jets!!!
What I have done will get you 98% of the DR's potential running the stock pilot, main and needle.

Image
airbox cover by auscanvet, on Flickr

These are the needles I have tried so far. From left, KTM 6G5 as recommended by others, better than stock when shimmed to 7mm on second or third clip. Two shaved stock needles, more about them later. DJ needle, the most popular because it addresses the two main problems of the stock needle. Too lean just off idle and lack of fuel supply over half throttle. The DJ needle does this very well by the severe taper obvious on the bottom. I was very happy with the DJ needle second clip above 20c and third clip below 20c. If I opened up the air box more than in the picture the bike was too lean with the stock main.
How to make the stock needle work like the DJ needle?? Obvious really, just measure down about 45mm from top and taper almost to nothing and then shove the needle down the big girls throat! The only time the needle taper matters is when you are comparing needles!

Image
needle comparison by auscanvet, on Flickr

The left hand shaved stock needle works excellent and was a smooth taper from about 45mm down. Second or third clip with the spacer BELOW the clip!! This used the needle stock length! "NOTE" The white spacer must be ground to let the needle hang straight.

Image
needle #1 by auscanvet, on Flickr

The right hand shaved needle is tapered less then cut to the length of the DJ needle. Spacer is on TOP of the clip and I use the third and fourth clip position. OMG!!! From the time I started the bike it said THANK YOU for finally getting it right! This just made such a difference that the bike seems perfect now. This is why I had to post my ramblings. Better than the excellent DJ and the best I have found so far by a long ways!
"NOTE" The left hand shaved needle is longer than the right so if you make a slight mistake grinding then you can still use the needle with the spacer above the clip.

Image
needle #1 by auscanvet, on Flickr

Things you must do;

Grind your header weld, free power everywhere.
Cut the stock diaphragm spring down to 100mm. Throttle response.
Grind white spacer so needle hangs straight.
Add foam to carb vent to stop dirt entering, this is why these carb's wear in my opinion.

THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION!! Come and try my suggestions if you are in the Brisbane area.

_________________
"Sold" 2011 DR650 GSXR #24, drilled slide, cut spring, modified stock needle, with cut air box, air assist forks, lowered pegs, stock tank,15-41. Still love working on them!


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:59 pm
Posts: 570
Location: brisbane, australia
Mistakes of course! Here is the #2 needle photo.

Image
needle #2 by auscanvet, on Flickr

I still get 20km/l, 50mpg., better than stock and way more fun!

_________________
"Sold" 2011 DR650 GSXR #24, drilled slide, cut spring, modified stock needle, with cut air box, air assist forks, lowered pegs, stock tank,15-41. Still love working on them!


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:07 am 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Valemount B.C.
Location:
Awesome,I'll get started this weekend on some more testing by moddifying the taper on my needle


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:38 am 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:59 pm
Posts: 570
Location: brisbane, australia
Sounds easy to do just taper the needle, right?? How hard can it be?? I practiced on a few old FCR needles first. I'm sure there is an easy way, but I put the needle in a cordless mounted in the vice, then carefully assaulted it with a grinder. Polished with steel wool, done in five, in the bike another five and vroom!!

_________________
"Sold" 2011 DR650 GSXR #24, drilled slide, cut spring, modified stock needle, with cut air box, air assist forks, lowered pegs, stock tank,15-41. Still love working on them!


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Single Tracker
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:39 pm
Posts: 182
Location:
I'm not really sure how you shaved your needles but I use the vice attachment for my dremel tool and put the needle into the keyless chuck attachment. Then I just sand down and polish.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P4 ... PDKIKX0DER


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:57 pm 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider
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Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:44 am
Posts: 511
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hi Auscanvet,

That's some good info you have compiled there. Are you finding that your positive results are replicated in other DR's ?

Reason I ask is because I found the Aussie supplied needle to be pretty good on the standard middle clip position combined with a 160 main jet. This was with a similar sized airbox opening to what you have - I just opened up the snorkel hole to 80 mm diameter. I had planned to do exactly as you have done with a needle reshape, but it didn't appear necessary on my bike.
AFR's verified with on the road wideband 02 tuning - stock bike other than GSXR 1000 can fitted.

I suspect your getting similar results with the smaller main/pointy needle as I have with bigger main/stock needle point.

Prior to getting my DR I had read so much about how bad the stock carb was, so picked up an FCR prior to getting the DR.
The FCR is a definite upgrade, but I could of easily lived the the above modded BST if I hadn't already purchased an FCR, in fact it took nearly 5000 klms before I bothered to fit up the FCR mostly out of curiosity !

Cheers

Steve

_________________
2013 DR650SE - with all the normal stuff !


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:54 am 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:59 pm
Posts: 570
Location: brisbane, australia
[quote="DR Steve"]Hi Auscanvet,

That's some good info you have compiled there. Are you finding that your positive results are replicated in other DR's ?

Reason I ask is because I found the Aussie supplied needle to be pretty good on the standard middle clip position combined with a 160 main jet. This was with a similar sized airbox opening to what you have - I just opened up the snorkel hole to 80 mm diameter. I had planned to do exactly as you have done with a needle reshape, but it didn't appear necessary on my bike.
AFR's verified with on the road wideband 02 tuning - stock bike other than GSXR 1000 can fitted.

I suspect your getting similar results with the smaller main/pointy needle as I have with bigger main/stock needle point.

Prior to getting my DR I had read so much about how bad the stock carb was, so picked up an FCR prior to getting the DR.
The FCR is a definite upgrade, but I could of easily lived the the above modded BST if I hadn't already purchased an FCR, in fact it took nearly 5000 klms before I bothered to fit up the FCR mostly out of curiosity !

Cheers

I only have a firm, perfectly formed butt dyno. Sure wish I had a "wide band " tuner. Hard to believe your bike isn't too rich. Is your needle hanging straight down?? Please come up here right now with your wide band tuner!! My offer to let others try my carb parts haven't been taken up yet. Maybe I should start charging as people perceive no value in free stuff!

_________________
"Sold" 2011 DR650 GSXR #24, drilled slide, cut spring, modified stock needle, with cut air box, air assist forks, lowered pegs, stock tank,15-41. Still love working on them!


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 Post subject: Re: BST magic
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:16 am 
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Adventure Rider
Adventure Rider
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:44 am
Posts: 511
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Auscanvet wrote:
DR Steve wrote:
Hi Auscanvet,

That's some good info you have compiled there. Are you finding that your positive results are replicated in other DR's ?

Reason I ask is because I found the Aussie supplied needle to be pretty good on the standard middle clip position combined with a 160 main jet. This was with a similar sized airbox opening to what you have - I just opened up the snorkel hole to 80 mm diameter. I had planned to do exactly as you have done with a needle reshape, but it didn't appear necessary on my bike.
AFR's verified with on the road wideband 02 tuning - stock bike other than GSXR 1000 can fitted.

I suspect your getting similar results with the smaller main/pointy needle as I have with bigger main/stock needle point.

Prior to getting my DR I had read so much about how bad the stock carb was, so picked up an FCR prior to getting the DR.
The FCR is a definite upgrade, but I could of easily lived the the above modded BST if I hadn't already purchased an FCR, in fact it took nearly 5000 klms before I bothered to fit up the FCR mostly out of curiosity !

Cheers

I only have a firm, perfectly formed butt dyno. Sure wish I had a "wide band " tuner. Hard to believe your bike isn't too rich. Is your needle hanging straight down?? Please come up here right now with your wide band tuner!! My offer to let others try my carb parts haven't been taken up yet. Maybe I should start charging as people perceive no value in free stuff!



Definetely not too rich with the 160 main. Runs a nice 12.5 - 12.8 at WOT and pretty good everywhere else. Needle hangs fine in standard position.
That is a 1.6 jet drilled main as in the hole is 1.6 mm. I believe that some of the jet kits don't follow normal jet sizing, so numbers can be a little off.

I intially started off with a smaller than 80mm diameter hole in the airbox and the stock main - bike wouldn't even accellerate, so took a guess at a 160 as I didn't have any jet drills between 152 and 160. It was too rich, so I kept trimming out the airbox hole untill the AFR was right at WOT - pretty much normal jetting in reverse by adding air instead of extra fuel.

I don't doubt that your setup is ok, it's just your going the smaller main/pointy needle route. I tested LOTS of FCR needles in my DR, with some needing mains as big as 165 while the needle I setteled on uses a 148 - 150. These all produce the same WOT AFR's.

Cheers

_________________
2013 DR650SE - with all the normal stuff !


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